Why dont other coaches teach their teams not to foul?????








(Lack of) fouls key for unc
February, 10, 2012
Feb 10
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By Robbi Pickeral
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. -- Over the years, North carolina players have gotten used to hearing coach Roy Williams scream three things in practice:

“Run!”
“Box Out!”
“Don’t foul!”


The first two are key, considering how Williams wants to push the pace and dominate the boards. But so, to Williams, is the third.

“Every year, every team, I’ve wanted my team to make more free throws than the other team shot,’’ Williams said.

And that doesn’t mean just getting to the line -- but keeping foes off of it, something at which the fifth-ranked Tar Heels have excelled.

[+] Enlarge
Kendall MarshallCal Sport Media/AP ImagesPlaying aggressive defense without fouling has been vital for point guard Kendall Marshall and North carolina.
According to ESPN Stats and Information, over the past 10 years -- nine of which Williams has been head coach -- unc has allowed opponents only 13.3 free throw attempts per game, 21st in the nation.

Entering Saturday’s game at Virginia, the Tar Heels lead the nation in that statistic (allowing only 13.3), while the No. 20 Cavaliers rank third (14.0).

Virginia’s lack of fouls can be somewhat credited to its pace; it’s known for playing great defense, but slowing things down. But for unc, one of the highest-scoring teams in the country, it comes down to discipline, senior forward Tyler Zeller said recently.

“We try to make sure that the fouls we do use are trying to make a play on the ball or a blocked shot or something,’’ the 7-footer said. “And I think your defensive principles are strong, if you’re in the right place at the right time, you’re less likely to foul.”

That means moving your feet, Williams said. Telling the big guys not to foul unless it’s above their chest. Not reaching in.

“I get really ticked off, because fouling a lot of times is really lazy -- ‘Well, I didn’t get position, so I’ll just reach in,’” Williams said. “It’s stupid. And what we do a lot is say, ‘Let’s use our brain a lot.’”

And they do. According to ESPN Stats and Info:

Only one Tar Heel player, Zeller, ranks in the top 25 in the ACC in personal fouls (He was No. 15, as of Thursday, with 58).
Point guard Kendall Marshall commits only 1.9 fouls per 40 minutes, seventh-fewest in the ACC.
Among ACC forwards, Harrison Barnes (2.4) and John Henson (2.4) commit the third-fewest fouls per 40 minutes.


Thus, unc has attempted almost double the free throws of its opponents (618 to 319). The Tar Heels are ninth in the nation in free throws attempted per game (25.8).

They rank eighth in personal fouls per game (14.6).

“Historically, even looking back to when Dean Smith coached, unc has just been a team that doesn’t foul that much,’’ said John Clougherty, the ACC’s head of officials.

A former official himself, he knows that refs are often accused of favoring unc because of the low whistle count. But he said that whether teams foul is determined by a lot of factors: whether they play zone, how much they trap, how aggressively they choose to play defense, the quality of athletes.

“Years ago, we had a coach -- and I won’t tell you which coach it was -- say to a group of refs at an officials’ clinic that he believed that carolina got a favorable whistle on all 50-50 plays,’’ Clougherty said. “In his mind, he justified getting the short end of the calls by saying carolina was getting favorable treatment. But in the officials’ position, his players were slower to get to the spot, slower to get everywhere. … unc had the better athletes, so it was easier for them to stay in front of their man, easier not to foul.”

Clougherty also said that his officials study teams’ and players’ tendencies, so they know what to look for when it comes to fouls. And that they don’t favor anybody.

“Some teams figure they have five fouls each player, and don’t mind using them,’’ he said. “Other teams don’t want to give up points at the line.”

Put the Tar Heels in that latter category.

Over the past five seasons, the most unc has put opponents on the line was in 2008-09, when foes averaged 16.5 free throw attempts per game.

In their past two games, the Tar Heels have gotten into some unusual foul trouble -- what with Marshall and Zeller playing with four apiece during the second half at Maryland, and Zeller, Barnes and freshman James Michael McAdoo finishing with four each in the Duke loss.

But those were an anomaly.

“I’m screaming all the time ‘Pressure, pressure. Don’t foul, don’t foul. Don’t reach, slide your feet, slide your feet. It’s the third most thing I’m yelling,’’ Williams said. “… You really have a better chance of getting what you want if you emphasize it the most."

Jeremy Lundblad and Mark Malzewski at ESPN Stats and Information contributed to the research for this story. Follow Robbi Pickeral on Twitter at @bylinerp.

Fewest Opp Free Throws Attempted Per Game in D-I This Season

1. North carolina 13.3

2. Wisconsin 13.8

3. Virginia 14.0

4. Mississippi State 14.1

5. Cincinnati 14.1

Fewest Opp Free Throws Attempted Per Game in the ACC This Season

1. North carolina 13.3

2. Virginia 14.0

3. Clemson 15.8

4. Boston College 16.3

5. Maryland 17.7

6. NC State 18.2

7. Georgia Tech 18.2

8. Duke 18.7

North carolina’s Opp FT Att Per Game, Last 5 Seasons

2011-12 13.3

2010-11 15.7

2009-10 15.8

2008-09 16.5

2007-08 16.4

Source: Jeremy Lundblad and Mark Malzewski, ESPN Stats and Information

Stats are so easy to manipulate:

Fouls per game (ACC play, 2012):


14.7 Virginia
14.8 NC State
15.3 Boston College
16.0 North carolina
16.6 Miami (FL)
16.7 Clemson
16.7 Wake Forest
17.6 Georgia Tech
18.1 Virginia Tech
18.2 Maryland
19.7 Duke
20.1 Florida State

How dare NC State get so many calls!

how many NCSU beat writers are writing for ESPN on the ability of NCSU coaches to coach their players to not foul?

be sure to include the quotes where refs say they base their calls on tendencies and not what actually happens.

also include more than one year's data.

kthxbai.

1. nc state is not relevant in basketball

2. witness statements are not factual assertions

3. nc state has a new coach, new playing style

Wow. Every ABc'er just got redemption. How about, and this is crazy talk I know, you just call the game?

No? Too hard?



Duke gets all the calls.

Historically, even looking back to when Dean Smith coached, unc has just been a team that doesn’t foul that much,’’ said John Clougherty, the

That is a statement from the head of the ACC officials not some unc PR firm. Can someone explain to me how 4 coaches over 53 years are all able to teach hundreds of players how to “not foul”?

In order to try to understand this a little better I looked at the stats.
unc is called for the 8th fewest fouls in the nation. That means 337 schools are called for more fouls per game than unc.

So maybe they play passively and thus can avoid foul trouble. Nope, they are ranked number 8 in the country for blocks per game and they are ranked number 3 in the nation for offensive rebounds per game. So in the two most aggressive categories in basketball they rank 8 and 3 but never commit fouls. How is this possible?

Clougherty also said that his officials study teams’ and players’ tendencies, so they know what to look for when it comes to fouls. And that they don’t favor anybody

So the refs come into a game with the preconceived notion that unc does not commit fouls. unc does not commit fouls because unc is known not to commit fouls. That is how it is possible. It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

What kind of impact does this bias have on a team that plays unc?
unc has played 24 games. In those games they have shot an average of 24.75 free throws per game (leading the nation) and their opponents have shot 13.29 free throws per game. That means at unc’s 65.4% free throw rate, teams will start the game with a 7 and a 1/2 point deficit.

They have had only one player all year who was disqualified because of fouls. So while other teams need players to step up when foul trouble hits. unc just plays the same players because they never have to deal with foul trouble.

“I’m screaming all the time ‘Pressure, pressure. Don’t foul, don’t foul. Don’t reach, slide your feet, slide your feet. It’s the third most thing I’m yelling,’’ Williams said. “… You really have a better chance of getting what you want if you emphasize it the most.”

I should have known. It is just great coaching that allows unc to avoid fouling, because if you make it your third most emphasized point, it will happen.

"I'm john swofford and I approve this message"

Keep the ref conspiracy theories a comin', they're real cute.

its not a conspiracy when its coming out of their own damn pie holes in an ESPN article written by a unc-ch homer.

its fact.

What's fact? Referees all conspire to give unc more free throws? Or their opponents fewer free throws? Which is it? Is it only at home, on the road, everywhere? Is it just refs in ACC games, or ALL NCAA officials?

Let's get the official story straight before it gets ripped to shreds.

No- there's a strict quota on fouls called, remember?

Never said this, pretty sweet straw man

EDIT: Dread with the quick dodge since he knows deep down it's all bullshit

Just like you never said ows was exactly like the Tea Party?

AMIRITE?

UPHIGHBRO!

You're right, I never said that.

I said they were similar. Just like how Obama is similar to Romney. They, however, are not the exact same person.

You're right, I never said that.

I said they were similar. Just like how Obama is similar to Romney. They, however, are not the exact same person.



**************************************************************************



Champs 5 times
post Oct 5 2011, 09:03 PM
Post #3


Coach
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Group: Members
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Exact same ilk as the tea party people.

******************************

Now STFU. AGAIN

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ilk

1. family, class or kind.

Romney is of the same ilk as Obama and Newt Gingrich. They are all politicians. They are not the EXACT SAME.

English 102 will be coming after Dread's next post I'm sure.

Fortunately Santorum is different from YOmama.

WTF decided it WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY to provide birth control for anyone other than myself?!

the shit that comes out of his mouth is hilarious. almost as funny as how he denies it and defends it at the same time.

I like how pookie brings up the trophy bit. When he had no idea what the difference was between a technical and flagrant foul, it was labelled "semantics". When I called a framed plaque a trophy it's HUGE DIFFERENCE HOW DARE YOU.

Is it a "technical" trophy or a "flagrant" trophy?

Let's get back to what Dread is trying desperately to dodge.

youre so full of shit. in my day there was no flagrant 2 BS. everything was a technical. i still call them technicals.

you really thought there was a regular season trophy and defended your statement for months.

everytime i think you are one of the few intelligent ones you go and prove me wrong.

what a fekkin dumbass.

Flagrant fouls have ALWAYS existed. They carried an automatic ejection. They are the ONLY way an official can eject a player (2 techs/5 fouls disqualify a player, but do not eject them). When hansbrough threw his "punch" at the NC State player, that was a flagrant foul. This year the NCAA split flagrant fouls into two categories, but they're as old as the game. Jeez man, this is like basketball 101.

BTW, you can have flagrant technical fouls (a technical that carries an automatic ejection), though I've never seen one called (not counting people leaving the bench for a fight, those are all flagrant technicals).

Quick Edit: To clarify: If a player is disqualified for a live ball play, it's a flagrant intentional. If it's a DEAD ball play, it's a flagrant technical. As I said, I've never seen the latter. Someone would have to get into a fight while headed to the locker room or something.

lol, the ref has to correct himself...

btw, I go back a lot further than tyler freaking hansblow.

i remember when "flagrant fouls" were added to the game. lee and these old ass coots have forgotten more than you can ever know.

ps: ive even reffed some fekking basketball. big whoop. no one cares.

pps: just wiki flagrant foul and you can tell me when flagrants were added to the game. we're waiting.

ppps: i would love to see the ACC Regular Season Championship "Plaque" that unc-ch awarded itself. Pics??? Link???

Where did I correct myself?

You're talking about when they were added to the NBA. They've been in college forever. Much like zone defenses. Even IF they were added to college in the 90's, you've only had some 20+ years to figure this shit out.

Actually, it's easy enough to prove if you know anything about the rules (or if you've ever officiated). Here are 5 somewhat uncommon situations. ANY official would know the answer to these.

1) A1 is bringing the ball to the front court, and is facing a press defense by team B. The trailing official counts to 9 while A1 is still in the backcourt. Under which of these circumstances (if any) is a 10-second violation called? A) Player A1 requests timeout before the official reaches 10 seconds. B) Player A1 releases the ball at 9 seconds, but the ball hasn't crossed the division line when the official reaches 10 seconds. C) Player A1 releases the ball and the ball crosses the division line at 9 seconds, but hasn't been caught by a player in the frontcourt before the official reaches 10 seconds.

2) A1 is driving into the lane and shoots the ball. While the ball is still on the rim in the cylinder, B1 strikes the backboard with force and the ball falls off the rim. Ruling?

3) A fight erupts on the court between A1 and B1. A6, A7, A8, B6, and B7 all leave their respective benches and join in the fight. No other personnel are involved. What penalties are assessed to both teams?

4) A1 attempts a 3-point field goal. While in the air, he is intentionally fouled by B1. The ball goes through the basket. A) Does the field goal count? B) How many free throws, if any, is A1 entitled to? C) Where is the ball eventually put back in play?

5) Team is trailing by 2 with .5 seconds to play. A1 is shooting the last of two free throws, and has made it readily apparent that he intends to miss the free throw intentionally in the hopes of gathering the rebound. A1 shoots and the ball hits the backboard, but does not hit the rim or go through the basket. Prior to the release of the shot, B1 violates by entering the lane prematurely. Ruling?

These are of course NCAA rulings, although they are all identical to high school if you've done that level.

guess what, I took the test too, no one cares.

you're wrong. its not so bad once you admit it. its the first step.




lol, just admit it.

Not from a test, I created the questions myself. They're easy, feel free.

I see this is going to take months for you to admit you are wrong, just like the REGULAR SEASON ACC CHAMPIONSHIP TROPHY.

Let's not forget "Same ilk as the TP"

MUST DIVERT. Says I know far less than he does about basketball, can't answer 5 simple questions.

"EXACT same ilk" is the correct quote I believe.

Anytime.

the issue is that you claim to be a ref and dont know what the fek you are talking about.

again.

flagrants weren't always in the rules as you claim. they were lumped in with all the other technicals. in the 90s they added flagrants as a subset of technicals as the game became more defensive oriented and frankly violent. its a fact. get used to it.

everyone here knows more about basketball than you. youre a typical know nothing carolina fan.

the hilarious thing is that you want me to answer some dumb ass ref questions... i took the test in 97, passed with flying colors (it aint rocket science), looked around at all the dorks who are refs and got the ###### out. youre one of the feking dorks, and proud of it. and you dont know shit about the game.

/Clears throat

Face

Jesus you must try real hard to get things consistently wrong EVERY time. Flagrants and technicals are UNRELATED. It's NEVER been a subset of a technical foul at ANY level. Maybe you need a flowchart or something to figure it out, because you sure seem to be clueless.

If you know so much about the game you A) would have an idea as to what a flagrant foul is and B) would be able to answer a simple set of questions about the game.

Instead you are backpedaling furiously while still managing to make up a bunch of incorrect garbage.

Finally, for a REAL face:

Flagrant fouls were created by the NCAA for the 1906 basketball season. Source: NCAA rules record book

Don't worry, I'm sure your memory of basketball before the 1900s is vast.

class b fouls "more flagrant". comprehension. get into it.

tripping is a regular foul, shouldering a regular foul, profane language is a technical. but they are flagrant according to you and ????

youre dumb as shit.

you must be a Y ref.

go back and watch any tape from the 80s. whenever there is a fight the ref throws up a quick T.

ahem

fekin face

from your link you numb nuts. at least read the shit you post.

1915 dumbshit.

I just want to say thank you to all my loyal fans out there...

DJ, BD, Dread, Lee, CARBuncLE (caps fo spec) and last but not least, da motha fekin Sheed. I know Im forgetting some of you...

serving facials on dumb ass unc-ch fans is almost a full time job and I couldn't do it without your support.

again, thank you.

Jesus the lack of reading comprehension is mind boggling. Flagrant fouls have TWO categories. Flagrant personals and flagrant technicals. Now do you get it? Note that at no point in the record does it say "flagrant foul created" EXCEPT for that line in 1906. You know why? Because that's when flagrant fouls were created.

Here are three basketball fights before 1990. Notice in all of these videos, the fist is up but there is NO TECHNICAL signal. No mention of potential technicals by the announcers (though they DO mention players getting tossed, and again, the only way to toss a player is by calling a flagrant)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AldG_kiNZ9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxnCY0CZ1pE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io-9UvFeSUE

class b fouls were created in 1906. they were "more flagrant" than class a fouls. so according to you and ???? all fouls were flagrant, but none were called "flagrant fouls".

class a fouls were called violations and class b fouls were called personals and technicals in 1915. still no mention of "flagrant fouls"

read your link.

its ok to be wrong. just admit it.



you are aware that no "flagrant fouls" were called in those links you posted right?

you know why? because they didnt exist.

I don't know why this is so hard for you. There are three types of fouls. Common, Intentional, Technical. Of these, each of these had two kinds (now three): Personal and Flagrant.

So you can have a common personal foul. Or a flagrant common. Or a flagrant intentional. Or a intentional personal. You (might) get the idea. The terms common and personal are interchangeable (i.e., a flagrant common is the same as a flagrant personal).

Before the advent of the intentional foul, you only had four types. Common personal, personal technical, flagrant common, and flagrant technical. It's VERY CLEARLY delineated.

From the record book: "1905-06, Personal fouls were separated into two classes: “A” for general fouls and “B” for more flagrant fouls. Class A fouls were called for ... tackling the opponent, holding the
opponent, pushing the opponent or addressing the game officials. Class B fouls could lead to
possible game disqualification and were called for striking the opponent, kicking the opponent,
shouldering the opponent, tripping the opponent, hacking the opponent, unnecessary
roughness, or using profane or abusive language." 1910-11, Within Class B fouls,
personal fouls were distinguished from the other.

The other in this case being flagrant fouls.

ALL of this is besides the point that you don't know shit about basketball. You keep trying to sidestep the very simple questions I asked, despite the fact that you can look up the answers in any rulebook (though judging from this thread I highly doubt you have the technical reading skills to do so).