NCAA Crawls Some unx Azz Options

[Champs 5 times]

Anyone who thinks Holden Thorp is even remotely involved just hasn't paid attention.

The guy would ban football if he could.

[Lee Corso]

The guy would ban football if he could.

But not basketball!

[Pookie]

why would we expect him to be involved (or responsible) for his own department?

[DevilDJ]

Tudor...

Tar Heels now face yet another awkward, uncertain season

It’s clear now that for a third consecutive season, unc’s football program will operate under a dark cloud and hasn’t yet pulled free of the academic scandal once hidden beneath the agents and gifts news

The academic record that surfaced these past few days concerning former football/basketball player Julius Peppers potentially represents the most serious and dangerous aspects of the saga.

If unabated academic irregularities date back that far, the breadth of the scandal is virtually unimaginable

At unc, it’s impossible to say when, where or how the academic fraud will end. But somewhere along the line, a few critical questions regarding the African and Afro-American Studies department need to be resolved:

• What was the incentive behind former department head Julius Nyang’oro’s decision to set up bogus courses? Did he just come up with the idea himself and implement it simply because he had a compelling desire to keep athletes eligible?

• When did Nyang’oro initiate his strange class procedures?

• How many players and in how many sports were grades awarded?

For good or bad, the answers to those questions will at least advance the “move-on” mission closer to an end

But if the history of this unc situation holds, it’s safe to assume nothing definitive will happen quickly, meaning yet another football season will be played under an awkward canopy of uncertainty

LINK
Three years an' countin....'

[Lee Corso]

What was the incentive behind former department head Julius Nyang’oro’s decision to set up bogus courses? Did he just come up with the idea himself and implement it simply because he had a compelling desire to keep athletes eligible?

Somewhere Dean Smith is wearing a diaper, trembling in a fetal position, afraid someone will find out the real truth.

[DevilDJ]

What was the incentive behind former department head Julius Nyang’oro’s decision to set up bogus courses? Did he just come up with the idea himself and implement it simply because he had a compelling desire to keep athletes eligible?

This , if ever revealed , will be the final nail in unx's coffin. Tudor , basically , answered his own question but it's a question many have been loathe to ask. Exactly WHY did Nyangoro do what he did? I think we all know why , it just hasn't been said...yet. We know academic advisors knew about these fraudalent classes and sent idiots to sign up for 'em. When it comes out that this curriculum was the centerpiece of systemic academic fraud used , primarily , in the service of admitting , keeping eligible and graduating affleetz ( with the full knowledge of all involved ) , unx is done. We gotta get there first though.

[DevilDJ]

When did Scandal become a major at unc ?

Julius Peppers ought to sue North carolina for carelessly allowing his transcript to become public . (If, as most of us assume, it is his transcript.)

But Peppers shouldn't sue the school for failing to provide a college education. He and the Tar Heels cut a deal long before he became a college athlete .

The deal: You're the best high school athlete in the state. We, North carolina, would love you, Julius, to represent us on the field and the basketball court. And if you want to be a student, that's fine, too.

Meanwhile, we'll hide you in African Studies and Afro-American Studies. We're taking orders now. You want A's or B's ?

Most large schools have programs in which they stash athletes, and some small schools do, too.

It's as foolish to believe that every athlete can cut it academically as it is to believe that every non-athlete can. The difference is that most non-athletes can't get past admissions

That other schools do it in no way excuses North carolina. The sleaze that encompasses the football program is such that when visitors get home they want to shower twice.

North carolina has so many problems it's as if it collects them.When did the scandals begin, and how deep do they go ?

Some fans defend the school, blame the media, contend the transgressions are all minor. Besides, they claim, everybody does it, especially N.C. State. Many of these fans have never been in Chapel Hill.

I respect the fans who, while passionate about their school's athletics, did not go to North carolina to watch games.

I respect the alumni who value their degrees, understand that the ongoing scandal cheapens them and hope to find a reason to again be proud of their school

LINK

[wopacker1980]

Anyone who thinks Holden Thorp is even remotely involved just hasn't paid attention.

The guy would ban football if he could.

So you're saying the Chancellor is not involved with the academic fraud?
Thanks! Big of you to finally admit academic fraud at unx-xh!

The 1st step of recovery is accepting that there's a problem.

[DevilDJ]

TDD poster layeth the smacketh down on a mouthy tarhole....

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Nominate | ReportPosted: Today 9:44 AM

RE: Peppers releases Statement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



DrRick wrote:
---------------------------------------------

You know me well enough to know that the only glasses I wear are prescription. And that's only when I've run outta contacts...

This whole thing has been kind of a non-starter, for me. Other than the egregious act of the 54 classes...none of the things that have gone down...from the payments, to the agents (although you gotta be pretty dumb to have a dude with agent ties on staff), to the grades...have burned some veil of sanctity, for me. Maybe I'm cynical...maybe I'm a realist...but amateur athletics, in 2012, is a farce. And has been for a while....

Corners get cut to make sure the show goes on. That's why I never jump up and down about UK. I'll never bring up rumors about things you hear about State and Duke. For what?

Having said all that...I DO understand the joy that rival fans are getting outta all this. unc fans have been, shall we say, less than gracious about the way 'we' do things. Which also makes it interesting, and funny, to watch some assess unc fans random blame on other schools and the NCAA. Proud to say that I hated the NCAA before it was cool...

So when I say 'I don't get it' it's not from Pom poms or having my head in the sand. I guess it's more from an a *perceived* awareness that this stuff goes on everywhere. Just don't give em a reason to come looking...






I'm pretty jaded about the state of 'amateur athletics', and don't disagree that shenanigans goes on at a lot of places. However 'this stuff goes on everywhere' re the unc mess is total ********. unc has not had an athlete - significant or otherwise - suffer academic trouble in about four decades. AFAIK, no other major school has anything CLOSE to this record. And it's not like unc hasn't taken in LOTS of kids who were shaky, at best, scholastically. Hell, I'm almost certain UK has kicked more than few kids out for academic reasons during this time.

So no, this level of absolute subordination of academic requirements does not happen 'everywhere else'. At 'everywhere else' kids are expected to meet at least some low standard of 'schoolwork'. At unc, an athlete simply can not do anything academically that would jeopardize their 'career'. We were told it was because of the 'carolina Way' - good kids and great support and all that crap. Turns out it was because of outright fraud. A total, baldface lie.

And if you think 54 AFAM classes (or one rogue tutor, or 1-3 rogue agents, etc.) in the last four years was even close to the tip of the iceberg, you are truly in denial. Every time some one has put a shovel in the ground during this scandal, they've hit a violation. If a backhoe was ever brought in, the motherload of corruption uncovered would be staggering

[DevilDJ]

The Buzz...

Smart move, unc – when you can’t get all the dirt under your rug, get a bigger rug.

Nothing like a politician to get to the bottom of unc corruption

LINK

[Dread]

I'm pretty jaded about the state of 'amateur athletics', and don't disagree that shenanigans goes on at a lot of places. However 'this stuff goes on everywhere' re the unc mess is total ********. unc has not had an athlete - significant or otherwise - suffer academic trouble in about four decades. AFAIK, no other major school has anything CLOSE to this record. And it's not like unc hasn't taken in LOTS of kids who were shaky, at best, scholastically. Hell, I'm almost certain UK has kicked more than few kids out for academic reasons during this time.

So no, this level of absolute subordination of academic requirements does not happen 'everywhere else'. At 'everywhere else' kids are expected to meet at least some low standard of 'schoolwork'. At unc, an athlete simply can not do anything academically that would jeopardize their 'career'. We were told it was because of the 'carolina Way' - good kids and great support and all that crap. Turns out it was because of outright fraud. A total, baldface lie.

And if you think 54 AFAM classes (or one rogue tutor, or 1-3 rogue agents, etc.) in the last four years was even close to the tip of the iceberg, you are truly in denial. Every time some one has put a shovel in the ground during this scandal, they've hit a violation. If a backhoe was ever brought in, the motherload of corruption uncovered would be staggering

Ouch baby, very ouch.

x 216

[DevilDJ]

"Philaheel" ( quoted earlier in this thread ) is a well-spring of rational thought....especially as he compares to other holes...

How out of touch can you

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 16:03 — philaheel

How out of touch can you people be? You lost your right to create a panel long ago. Maybe the governor or the attorney general could create a panel or hire a firm with Louis Freeh like credentials, subpoena powers, and even criminal prosecutorial powers. unc has no more authority to create a panel than Jerry Sandusky does to investigate himself.

Where are you Cooper and Perdue? The resignations need to start with members of the BOG and go down through the entire administrative structure at unc. Why aren't they being demanded? Why do these people get a pass when the rest of us would be axed for malfeasance much smaller than this? This has gone on since the late 1990s! For around 15 years it appears.

All the sports involved in this, including football and basketball, must be shut down. You idiots have made our alma mater a laughing stock. You have brought shame on our state. Like an alcoholic, you need to stop trying to hide and ask for an outside panel, which you have no role whatsoever in forming, that will find all the rot and corruption and clean it out, including you yourselves. Stop the cya.

"Agent Pierce" AKA "BobLee..."

Unless....
Thu, 08/16/2012 - 15:17 — AgentPierce
Unless the panel included 5-6 of the most rabid "anti-unc serial posters" here, those serial posters will automatically debunk it's findings. Fortunately "reactions from the N&O comment boards" don't much matter in the real world.

Oh yeah. Now that basketball is involved , those who were once so critical of Butch Davis , Bob Winston , Dick Baddour et al are circlin' the wagons.

LINK

Here , he gets curb-stomped by a 2 Pack fans....

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

Point-of-fact:..... the "board" did not ask that question re: recruiting. One member of that board - Barbara Rosser-Hyde - asked it. Ms Rosser-Hyde is not an officer on the board and was only representing her own curiosity on the matter. She has become quite infamous for that inquiry.
Her husband is a part-owner of the NBA's Memphis Grizzlies. Not that that is relevant; just a factoid. :-)

restonpack1

Yes, and unc didn't commit academic fraud, "one department head" did. unc's football coaching staff didn't have improper ties with agents, "one associate head coach" did. And the BOT didn't ask how the scandal would affect recruiting, "one trustee" did. It's great fun to tapdance and "point of fact" the problem away.

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

Well no. Most of that mess did indeed happen. But it WAS that one trustee who asked about recruiting. I appreciate that you prefer your own version resty.... but others might stumble in here and want the truth. There are more than just you and I here

restonpack1

You are parsing words in an attempt to downplay this situation, as usual. And you are going to attempt to convince us that's not the case, as usual.

Could it be worded as "one trustee" instead of "the BOT" - sure. Is that a key distinction that warranted your "truth squad wanna-be" reply - no. I hate to break this to you, but "one trustee" is not a random and insignificant role that does not reflect upon the Board of Trustees. And that was the one and only question the BOT asked on that day. How is this affecting football recruiting? No other questions.

WolfPackOldtimer

So SACS accepted the iterim report with no issues? SACS evidently does not care about fraudulent classes and grade changes with forged signatures. That says alot about SACS doesn't it!? I went through several SACS reviews while part of NC public education. It is all a Dog and Pony show with lots of useless reports. Nothing changed as a result of the review and everyone knows how well our public schools are educating the young people of our great state.

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

WPOT: Your ongoing comments on this issue all have a decidedly cynical tone to them. Are you as cynical about pretty much everything in Life, or just anything involving a rival institution you don't like very much?
I don't know your politics. Are you equally cynical as regards the other political group? Howsabout "government in general"..... pretty cynical about that too?

Just curious if such cynicism can be compartmentalized. "Cynicism", last I checked, is certainly not a crime or a mental disorder, just a way of evaluating one's world. :-)

WolfPackOldtimer

I am not a cynic about much of anything in life. Are you always so judgemental of others who have a differint opinion from your own?

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

"Judgemental of others with a different opinon...." YIKES! That would NEVER happen on an N&O anonymous comment board. I certainly do not want to be the first to do THAT. :-) I simply asked for my on-going edification.

So the answer is you are an up-beat positive and down-right cheery fellow who happens to have a visceral dislike for unc-CH. OK, I can work with that. Thanks.

restonpack1

"Please stop talking about this"
"Everybody does it"
Now for the 3,000-word explanation of how that's not your point

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

You're very strange restonp1. But you already knew that.
And my posts, admittedly frequent, are short and pithy. I leave the filiblustering to you. :-)

restonpack1

Keep telling yourself those things. Very few are buying it. For someone who is fine talking about this and hasn't said "everybody does it," you sure seem to spend a lot of time trying to passive-aggressively get people to stop talking about it, and hinting that "everybody does it." I know you see yourself as being among the unc fans who are willing to discuss this, and I guess you expect credit for that - fine - I give you credit for being willing to discuss it at all. But I would hope that you recognize your own patterns of whining at people for discussing this and for suggesting that this is an unusual and severe situation, beyond the norm at big-time sports programs. "Oh, I agree for my opening 5 words, but let me parse words and attempt to insult you for my remaining 2,695 words."

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

resty resty resty.... :-(

WolfPackOldtimer

I am a down-right cheery fellow who happens not to dislike unc-CH at all.

AgentPierce , AP on Twitter @TheAgentPierce

Lord knows we can use all the down-right cheery fellows we can get around here. It can get a little dreary and morose at times

Ya know , for someone who is so overtly critical of "monkey boards" , he sure as fuk has no problem diving right in on one. If asked , I'm sure he'd make some definitive and crucial distinctions between , say , the message board on a fan-driven website and a similar forum from a newspapers'....as if any existed. That , or he'd use his "Agent Pierce" moniker rather than the "Bob Lee" name he critiques "monkey boards" under. Hmmmm....

LINK

[DevilDJ]

Unreal , the incest....

FreshEye 6th Man
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Posted: 8/18/2012 9:48 AM

Re: unc Scandal: Information primer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The NCAA first learned of the academic scandal during its investigation of the swirling athletic scandal resulting in sanctions for carolina's football team. The NCAA gave carolina a choice to either investigate the academic prong themselves or request an investigation by the NCAA. carolina chose to self investigate. Five months after NCAA sanctions were announced including a 1-year bowl ban, loss of scholarships, and monetary penalty, carolina announced an "independent" investigation into its academics prior to 2007 would be conducted:


"5YearPlansSuck wrote: Just how independent is Gov. Martin when he and Holden Thorp are currently serving on the Board of Directors of something called the Institute for Defense & Business?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t...7hOroYC-XK5WCRA

See page 1 of that pdf."



"wooddra wrote: http://uncnews.unc.edu/content/view/5491/68/

Holden Thorp, unc-Chapel Hill Chancellor.

Thorp details wide-ranging efforts to address course irregularities, academic-athletic balance

unc-Chapel Hill is bringing in a former governor, a national management consulting firm and the president of a prestigious national higher education association to help address different aspects of issues related to an internal investigation that found course irregularities in the African and Afro-American studies department.

Chancellor Holden Thorp made those announcements today in an email message highlighting ongoing progress with reforms in academics and athletics to faculty and staff as the campus gears up for fall semester.

Read Thorp’s full message.

“Our focus every day remains on fixing the problems and ensuring they never happen again,” Thorp said.

The University is implementing all of the recommendations in four previous campus reviews:
a review of courses in the department,
a report on the Academic Support Program for Student-Athletes,
an Independent Study Task Force Report, and
a Faculty Executive Committee Report.

In addition, carolina is cooperating fully with the work of a unc Board of Governors panel convened by unc President Tom Ross that is assessing the campus investigation and response to determine if they are reasonable and adequate to protect the University’s academic integrity and help prevent a similar situation from occurring again.

In new developments, Thorp announced that former N.C. Gov. James G. Martin will lead an independent review of additional academic irregularities that may have occurred before 2007. (The original four-year departmental course review covered 2007 to 2011.) Martin, who holds a Ph.D. in chemistry, is a former Davidson College faculty member who served on faculty athletics and admissions committees. The former member of Congress also serves on the Board of Directors of the John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy and as chairman and director of the Institute for Defense and Business based in Chapel Hill.

Martin will be assisted by Virchow, Krause & Company, LLP, a national management consulting firm with extensive experience in academic performance procedures and controls. The conclusions will be provided to the unc Board of Governors panel, which convened in July.

“Members of the Board of Trustees, President Ross and I all believe that this is an important step in rebuilding the confidence that you deserve to have in our academic integrity,” Thorp said. “This review will begin immediately.”

In addition, Virchow, Krause & Company will review new academic performance policies, procedures and controls the University already has put in place in the African and Afro-American studies department, the College of Arts and Sciences and the Summer School “to ensure they represent best practices and, if not, to make specific recommendations for improvement,” the chancellor said. “We are determined to make sure that our internal controls are such that irregularities of the past will not recur.”

Thorp also appointed Hunter Rawlings, president of the Association of American Universities (AAU), to help carolina examine the future relationship between academics and athletics on campus. Bringing in outside experts to provide an independent, comprehensive analysis of that relationship was a key recommendation in the Faculty Executive Committee report. unc-Chapel Hill is a member of the AAU, an association of 61 top public and private research universities. Rawlings was president of the University of Iowa and Cornell University, holds degrees in classics including a Ph.D., and was a star men’s basketball player and baseball pitcher in college.

The University will launch this effort after Martin and Virchow, Krause & Company complete their independent review and the Board of Governors panel finishes its work. “Our goal is to engage the entire campus community in a meaningful discussion and analysis of the role of athletics in the life of the University,” Thorp said.

Read more.

Published August 16, 2012."


"RaleighBound wrote:
...So here's who the governor has been associating with lately on the Board of Directors for the plausible:

Institute for Defense and Business

Chairman and Director and otherwise ideal man with integrity for the job:

The Honorable James G. Martin – (Chairman) – Former Governor of North carolina and Former Member of the U.S. Congress

Lone minority married to a retired USAF Colonel:
Debra Plousha Moore - (Director) - Sr. VP, carolinas Health Care System

A graduate of you know where:
Mr. Frank B. Holding, Jr. – (Vice Chairman) – Chairman & CEO, First Citizens BancShares, Inc. and First Citizens Bank, Raleigh, North carolina


Recently retired managing director and co-head of the Transportation Group at Citigroup Global Markets New York:
Mr. Thomas W. Bradshaw, Jr. – (Treasurer) – Financial Advisor, Morgan Stanley Smith Barney, Raleigh, North carolina


Co-founder of carolina for Kibera:
Mr. Rye Barcott – Co-founder of carolina for Kibera, Chapel Hill, North carolina ; TED Fellow; and Associate at Duke Energy, Charlotte, North carolina



Graduate and adjunct faculty member of guess where:
Mr. Mark C. Cramer – President, Institute for Defense and Business, Chapel Hill, North carolina


A graduate of guess where:
Mr. Seddon (Rusty) Goode, Jr. – Former President and Director, University Research Park, Inc., Charlotte, North carolina


A graduate of guess where:
Mr. James (Jim) E.S. Hynes – Chairman, Board of Commissioners, carolinas Health Care System, Charlotte, North carolina


A graduate of guess where:
Dr. John D. Kasarda – Director of the Frank Hawkins Kenan Institute of Private Enterprise and Kenan Distinguished Professor of Strategy and Entrepreneurship, Kenan-Flagler Business School, The University of North carolina, Chapel Hill, North carolina


Owner of a management consulting business founded in 2008 with reported sales under $500,000 with apparently no website:
LTG William E. Mortensen, USA (Ret.) – Chairman and CEO, Mortensen and Associates, LLC, Southport, North carolina


Chair of the unc-Chapel Hill Board of Trustees and graduate of you know where:
Mr. Roger L. Perry, Sr. – President, East West Partners, Chapel Hill, North carolina

And of course, it wouldn't be the carolina Way unless, rounding out the directors:
Dr. Holden Thorp – Chancellor, The University of North carolina, Chapel Hill, North carolina

[Dread]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - bob lee is a bought n paid for 'hole. And he's all about "transparency" and "doing the right thing" until the sacred cow is threatened.

[Carlos the Jackal]

From above...

...but "one trustee" is not a random and insignificant role that does not reflect upon the Board of Trustees. And that was the one and only question the BOT asked on that day. How is this affecting football recruiting? No other questions.

[DevilDJ]

CO without all the facts....

Outsiders for unc probe is right call

unc Chapel Hill Chancellor Holden Thorp finally got the message: The ever-evolving scandal involving academic fraud and the school’s football team needs independent probers and reviewers for the school to make a convincing case it has gotten to the bottom of this disgraceful episode and has put in place effective reform measures. With a brutal national spotlight shining on them , and relentless public questioning, it was all too apparent nothing less would put unc on the road to repairing its damaged integrity.

So, we were glad to read that Thorp has asked former Gov. Jim Martin, a Republican who led the state from 1985 to 1993, to look into the matter along with a national management consulting firm, Virchow, Krause & Co. They will conduct an audit to try to find out whether the no-show classes and poorly supervised independent studies found earlier this year extend beyond the four-year period that has been examined.

Based on the discovery of a transcript apparently belonging to NFL great Julius Peppers who attended unc in the 1990s, there is reason to suspect it does. Peppers’ transcript shows he was amassing an embarrassing academic record , buoyed only by Bs or better in seven classes in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies, classes later shown to be nonexistent or requiring very little work to pass.

Bringing in outsiders to review and investigate what happened was one of the recommendations a special unc faculty subcommittee made a few weeks ago. We’re glad Thorp has finally agreed to it. Still, he continues to be slow in acting in this matter. And his statement Thursday explaining his actions was hardly a robust assertion that the school was determined to get to the bottom of the scandal: “Obviously a lot people are concerned that our review didn’t go back far enough,” he said, “and we’ve come to the conclusion that we’re not going to satisfy people’s interest in that if we don’t have an objective firm and objective individual.”

Yes, that’s true. But there are more important reasons for an independent review. The academic fraud cheated students of the education they were entitled to at unc. The scandal has been a stain on the school’s reputation. The school should be eager to do all it can to assure the public – whose taxes support unc – that this problem has been effectively addressed.

It ain't an "independent" investigation. Everything else is pretty much spot-on though....

LINK

The Buzz...

You can’t spell DuncE without unc .

Want the unc job done right? Get an NCSU alum to do it.

LINK

[DevilDJ]

Peppers donates $250,000 to unc scholaship fund

Former University of North carolina at Chapel Hill football player Julius Peppers donated $250,000 to the Light on the Hill Society Scholarship fund that supports African-American students, the school said in a release Monday.

Peppers previously donated $100,000 in 2009 to The Light on the Hill Society Scholarship which pays tribute to past unc African-American graduates and supports African-American first-year students

“After considering the ways that I might be able to help young college students, I decided to continue my support of the Light on the Hill scholarship,” Peppers said in a statement. “I would like to endorse this particular fund and encourage other former unc students who have found success to reach back and assist the efforts of current and future Tar Heels

The Light on the Hill Society Julius Peppers Scholar receives an annual $1,000 award, renewable for up to three years. Other Light on the Hill Society Scholars receive a one-time $1,000 award.

Peppers, a No. 2 overall pick in the 2002 NFL draft by the carolina Panthers, has recently been in the headlines for a transcript that was found on the unc-CH website. The transcript showed that Peppers took a number of classes within the troubled African and Afro-American Studies Department.

Peppers confirmed that the transcript was his last week, creating the potential for a violation of the Federal Educational Rights and Privacy Act.

The Light on the Hill Society scholarship effort began during the 2005 Black Alumni Reunion. the program has awarded 26 scholarships: 22 Light on the Hill Society Scholars and four Julius Peppers Scholars

LINK

[DevilDJ]

Board may oust Thorp

A source close to the University of North carolina system indicates that some members of the Board of Governors are working to remove Holden Thorp as chancellor of the Chapel Hill campus. The members intend to make a formal motion at the Board’s next gathering if unc President Tom Ross fails to dismiss Thorp by the September meeting.

When asked why, the source simply said, “The university is the laughing-stock of the nation and the damage is spreading to the entire system. The only solution is transparency and a leadership change.”

Honest NC will provide further details as they become available.

LINK

[Pookie]

damage isnt spreading anywhere. this is all unc-ch*****.

[DevilDJ]

NITStan....

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Nominate | ReportPosted: Today 5:19 PM

Re: Peppers releases Statement


HELLO that should just about take care of Mr. Pepers unpaid Parking Tickets.

This is the lemur cooing songs of peace after he has pelted the villagers with his faeces. As is said in my country, “The fool sucks wisdom, as he porter sups, And cobblers grow fine speakers in their cups.” THANK YOU